TO ADULT BEGINNERS IN THIS FORUM:

I am tired of being diminished and picked upon by Monica and Jotur.

In trying to convey my interpretation of what learning to make music is all about in my opinion (my 36 years of piano teaching has given me the experience of which and from which I talk about). This is not me posturing, or having a hidden agenda with which to "put people down, it is my style of thinking and talking and teaching that is being disparaged.

When I have changed a word in my reply to these gals, I have changed it to convey what I meant, because it was being understood differently than I meant. In my opinion the problem is in their perception, and not in my intention.

Please if you have PMed either Monica or Jotur about me will you PM directly to me at this time and let my know what problem I have created for you. I do not want people to feel dumped upon or discouraged or irritated from anything I have posted. Sometimes I have said things in playful jesting and been concerned a little that it was not seen as poking the person. I am ready to hear anything you would want to tell me. Either use PM or post.

I also want to share this website as an 11 page document about The Neurobiology of Music" it talks about the brain and how information is stored. It's very interesting. It was posted in a topic: Performance Anxiety, Red Dot Syndrome and Brain Waves".

http://www.gallup-europe.be/PositivePsyc...20of%20Flow.pdf

Thank you for understanding my distress with the subject to which I am asking your input to. I don't want to remain here if it is a bad experience.

Betty

Betty, this will be my last post to you on the subject. Do you not see the irony in saying that you don't want people feeling dumped on or irritated, and that you are ready to hear anything, but when I attempted to do exactly that, you state that you are tired of being "diminished and picked on" by me? How comfortable do you think anybody else is going to feel in voicing any irritation they might be feeling right now?

I apologize if you felt I was picking on you. I made my remarks because I thought (a) perhaps you did not know how your comments were being perceived by at least some of us, and (b) you might be motivated to change your behavior if you did. I see now that I was wrong, and I won't make further appeals to you.

I do, however, believe very strongly that there are different paths to piano and music, and I will continue to do what I can to make self-teachers feel comfortable and supported here.

On the subject of self-teaching versus teaching, if I were to self-teach I'd try to get my basics, and then take it to someone who was an expert in the area. I don't frequent this board too often even though I do teach adult beginners, but if there is an air of elitist can-do amongst the beginners, that would be sorely out of place.

I had a beginner come to me playing rep much more difficult than he was capable of doing well. While I commend him and every other "beginner" (because a lot of the people hanging out in the beginner forum are far from beginners) it is still beneficial to have a third party supervise and advise. I myself am not a beginner, and am not playing easy rep, but I still feel at my current level (post-bac) I need a teacher. There is nothing wrong with a humbling every now and then.

So, Monica and Jotur, this isn't meant as a flame to you, and this is most definitely not a flame to Betty as I feel she has been an important and vocal contributor to these forums. However, from the standpoint of a teacher I can see where Betty is coming from. I can also see where you two are coming from. Honestly the language used has been quite mild and while I can understand being taken aback I don't think it merits a full-out tl;dr about it.

What I think should be taken away from this is that it is never bad to have a teacher, no matter what your skill level. We cannot be judge and jury no matter how we try. If that means that I too have an elitist attitude towards self-teachers simply because I think they need more guidance than most, then so be it, and I too will step out of this forum.

Nicely stated, Minaku, and I agree with you. I've always said that people will progress faster with a teacher. All I am asking for is that those who, for whatever reason, choose to self-teach are not belittled.

I don't see this as a line-in-the-sand kind of issue, and I really don't want to hear talk of people leaving the forum. That's not what AB forum is about. What we're about, I think, is respect and support, no matter what path we have chosen for ourselves in our musical journeys.

Minaku - for you, and perhaps for the kind of music you wish to play, it may be that having a teacher is the way to go. I have no problem with you doing that, or anyone else. *Many* people on this forum have teachers, and are very satisfied.

But for your comment that no one can be judge and jury, I will say that, for me, having a formal teacher is not the way I get that feedback. I don't play classical music beyond Anna's Notebook. It's not at all what I play. But the feedback I get comes from other musicians who are *not* piano players, and the dancers for whom I play, and from my ears. It may well be that to your ears I could do something "better" - the problem is that that choice is mine, and the musicians and dancers with whom I am making music. I play piano for recreation. That doesn't mean I don't work at it. It doesn't mean I don't try to improve. I learn a lot from here, from other piano players I know, from reading, from listening. But my goals and how I measure them are up to me, just as those who chose to have formal lessons choose that for themselves. There isn't, to me, an issue of one being "better" than the other. They are simply different ways to one's own goals.

I don't have much to offer those who are playing Rachmaninoff in terms of specific techniques, and I don't try. I *do* have some experience to share with those who are teaching themselves, are looking for hints on how to play the kind of music I play, on how I approached particular challenges. They are valid experiences. I also have, and I firmly believe that everyone here does also, learning and life experiences outside of piano playing that are also applicable to learning piano, and I share those. People may or may not find them useful - everybody's different.

So I don't even begin to denigrate those who take lessons. There were great pieces in the recital from people of every variation on not-formal-lessons now to never formal lessons to only formal lessons to formal lessons someday to lessons from on-line sources, and some variations I wouldn't have a clue about. They are all valid ways to learn and to get to one's own goals.

I'm with Monica - respect no matter what path we have chosen for ourselves in our musical journeys. My journey and yours aren't the same. One isn't better than the other. They are different.

Cathy

A friendly note from one of the ABF moderators:

Posting on internet boards is a delicate art. Deprived of all the other cues we usually use to aid understanding, we are left only with the written word. In this situation, it can be very easy to give a different impression than intended.

I find giving others the benefit of the doubt[/b] to be one of the most important things I can do when communicating online.

For those participating in this thread, might I suggest that we try to give each other a little more benefit of that doubt than we have in the past? This might include making some uncommon assumptions, for example assuming that someone is a more experienced player than they seem to be, or that your suggestions might actually not be of value to them, or that they might know something that, while in contradiction to something you know, is equally valid. Another assumption I like to make about internet posters is that they never mean to sound negative or patronizing, even if I think that's how they sound. And lastly, I always try to assume that my words may be misinterpreted, so I try to choose those words with more care than I would if I were speaking with someone face to face.

It seems to me that everyone posting in this thread has valuable contributions to make. I hope that those contributions will not be obscured by other issues which likely are the result of our limited means of communication here on the internet.

Well said.

I'm learning using the same book "joy of first year piano"
currently learning Alexander March - Beethoven.
Taken me 2 weeks to get it HT albeit slowly. I like the book - nice soft print easy on the eye compared to newer books which when the staff is really sharp print my eyes get tired!!

Just read through all the arguing - a waste of 10mins i'm never going to get back!!!

Such is life.